Gaming

Updates Restricted List

Posted by karne (3rd Sep 2004, 10:56) - http://www.wizards.com

Since MTG have updated their type 1.5 banned/restricted list I thought we should update our own.

Personally I see no point in banning cards (save ante ones which are worthless anyway). So we'll allow anything including Unglued and Chaos Orb is you have any..

I suggest instead that we treat the 1.5 banned list as restricted (one copy only in a deck). This actually opens up a lot of cards as you may now use 4 copies of dark ritual and lotus petal (amongst others). Comments? any cards we really should add?

Suggested Restricted:

* Amulet of Quoz * Ancestral Recall * Balance * Bazaar of Baghdad * Black Lotus * Black Vise * Bronze Tablet * Channel * Chaos Orb * Contract from Below * Darkpact * Demonic Attorney * Demonic Consultation * Demonic Tutor * Dream Halls * Earthcraft * Entomb * Falling Star * Fastbond * Frantic Search * Goblin Recruiter * Grim Monolith * Gush * Hermit Druid * Illusionary Mask * Jeweled Bird * Land Tax * Library of Alexandria * Mana Crypt * Mana Drain * Mana Vault * Memory Jar * Metalworker * Mind Over Matter * Mind Twist * Mind's Desire * Mishra's Workshop * Mox Emerald * Mox Jet * Mox Pearl * Mox Ruby * Mox Sapphire * Necropotence * Oath of Druids * Rebirth * Replenish * Skullclamp * Sol Ring * Strip Mine * Tempest Efreet * Time Spiral * Time Walk * Timetwister * Timmerian Fiends * Tinker * Tolarian Academy * Vampiric Tutor * Wheel of Fortune * Windfall * Worldgorger Dragon * Yawgmoth's Bargain * Yawgmoth's Will


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 Discussion

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read biography for - armadillo

 armadillo ( 3rd Sep 2004, 11:23, Rank: Peacekeeper )  reply

Hurloon Wrangler

(www.wizards.com)


read biography for - armadillo

 armadillo ( 3rd Sep 2004, 11:24, Rank: Peacekeeper )  reply

and Chimney Imp (www.wizards.com) - that thing is broken in every way


read biography for - Siberman

 Siberman ( 3rd Sep 2004, 11:50, Rank: Mentat )  reply

pet hate: treskelion, although I konw that there's not much intrinsically wrong about it, it does have a tendency to shut our games down.


read biography for - armadillo

 armadillo ( 3rd Sep 2004, 11:57, Rank: Peacekeeper )  reply

time stop might actually be able to deal with a trisk - it can remove a whole pile of abilities from the stack, instead of having to stifle each ping


read biography for - karne

 karne ( 3rd Sep 2004, 12:26, Rank: GSV )  reply

If your op is stupid enough to put them all on the stack rather than in singles or small groups yeah..

The Wrangler stays - its great and it's only a 2:2 ];=8)

triskelion - I've love to restrict it but can't really justify that - it's mainly so powerful as people don't use sideboards. Urza's armour stops it dead. Maybe if we slap people using more than 2 in a deck..

Going to ignore the chimney imp suggestion ];=8)


read biography for - Hack

 Hack ( 6th Sep 2004, 10:29, Rank: Cylon Centurion )  reply

I think that the Squire should be banned.


read biography for - karne

 karne ( 6th Sep 2004, 11:50, Rank: GSV )  reply

squire?!


read biography for - dormouse

 dormouse ( 10th Sep 2004, 11:43, Rank: Jedi )  reply

As a matter of interest and general challenge: given a 'primed' Triskelion, i.e. one that has sufficient counters to kill you, is there any way for you to win?

Assume that the trisk player is sensible enough to play and resolve each 1 damage individually, and not pile them up on top of one another.

There are some boneheaded strategies which I will get out of the way here:

  • Already being invulnerable to trisk, eg with urza's armor or pariah. You would have to have successfully set this up before trisk becomes primed, otherwise you'd probably just be killed in response to playing your lifesaver. Assume that at the point trisk becomes primed, you are not already invulnerable to it ;)
  • If you have a monstrous amount of direct damage - in sufficient quantity to kill the trisk player before the killing point of damage to you resolves.
  • If you have forced the trisk player to miscalculate due to lots of instant life gain, which you have managed to get resolved. Technically the trisk was not actually primed in this case, although no-one else would have known that.

The only, exceedingly feeble, scenario I could come up with involves the Cheese Stands Alone (really). Come on, someone has to be able to do better than this! Otherwise, we may have to conclude that the only way to deal with trisk is to kill the player or it as early as possible (as with slivers) - kill em before they get going.


read biography for - karne

 karne ( 10th Sep 2004, 11:50, Rank: GSV )  reply

The cheese trick btw works like this:

Have The Cheese Stands Alone, mana sac lands and a morphed creature in play and Simoon (or similar) in hand. Now play Simoon, dealing 1 damage to everything. The 'skelion player is unlikly to respond to that so let it resolve. Then morph the creature to a 1:1 - morph can't be responded to and the creature dies as a state based effect. Similarly cheese wins you the game with no chance for the 'skelion to trigger.

It's very convoluted though..

Reverse polarity could work - If you can get the 'skelion's triggers stacked. How you do that though, I'm not sure. Maybe combo with Guilty Conscience?


read biography for - dormouse

 dormouse ( 10th Sep 2004, 11:53, Rank: Jedi )  reply

Here is the unlikely scenario:

  • Trisk is primed.
  • You are playing a Cheese deck.
  • You have cleared your permanents and your hand sufficiently so that all you have left is a way of dealing 1 damage to a creature (eg Lava Dart, or Earthquake for something less suspicious), a morph creature that has 1 toughness after morph (eg Daru Mender), the Cheese Stands Alone, and enough sacrificial lands to let you play all these.
  • Play your morph creature face down. Hope that the Trisk player chooses not to kill you and lets it resolve.
  • Play your 1 damage spell, dealing 1 damage to your 2/2 morph. Hope that the Trisk player chooses not to kill you and lets it resolve.
  • At this point, you should have no hand left, and the only permanent you control is the morph.
  • Play the Cheese Stands Alone. Hope that the Trisk player chooses not to kill you and lets it resolve.
  • I think that if you are alive at this stage, you've won.
  • Sac all your remaining lands. I believe that these cannot be responded to, because they are mana abilities.
  • Morph your creature. The morph itself cannot be responded to, although it puts any morph triggers on the stack. However, these should be irrelevant, because as soon as it morphs, it becomes X/1, and it has already had 1 damage dealt to it, so it instantly dies. You win. (???)

Of course, this won't work anymore now that i've told you all ;) It relies on being a convoluted trick that the trisk player waits too long to respond to.


read biography for - dormouse

 dormouse ( 10th Sep 2004, 11:55, Rank: Jedi )  reply

karne: beat me to it ;) someone must be able to do better than this... otherwise we will have to be officially mean to trisk players ;)


read biography for - karne

 karne ( 10th Sep 2004, 12:06, Rank: GSV )  reply

oo oo can we? please?


read biography for - Beale

 Beale ( 10th Sep 2004, 12:47, Rank: Cylon Centurion )  reply

Glacial Chasm!

It's a land, so the Trisk player can't respond to it, and if you're already prepared, it'll hold long enough for you to do whatever you want to do to win. :)


read biography for - dormouse

 dormouse ( 10th Sep 2004, 13:21, Rank: Jedi )  reply

good find! that certainly works. so who has some? ;)


read biography for - karne

 karne ( 10th Sep 2004, 14:02, Rank: GSV )  reply

erm.. we do for a start ]:=8)

Beale - good thinking!


read biography for - Sulkyblue

 Sulkyblue ( 10th Sep 2004, 14:28, Rank: Nazgul )  reply

well.. so long as whatever you're going to do to kill the trisk player doesn't involve attacking them. Is there something that can be done with the new legend rules. The discombulation of legends is state based so you can't respond to it correct? So you just have to make it legendary and well... ok, that's not going to work then.

I'm trying to work out some way of using the pings from opponent's trisk to power your own trisk... must be something can be done with a sun droplet


read biography for - karne

 karne ( 10th Sep 2004, 17:31, Rank: GSV )  reply

Nothing that the trisk player can't kill you in response to. Not that I can think of anyway.


read biography for - Beale

 Beale ( 10th Sep 2004, 17:56, Rank: Cylon Centurion )  reply

I rather like the idea of having two Blood hounds and a Diamond Valley out, then when you're hit, sacrificing one for life and flinging the other. :) Not very practical, though.


read biography for - Siberman

 Siberman ( 11th Sep 2004, 08:01, Rank: Mentat )  reply

the trisk could still respond and kill you in response.


read biography for - Siberman

 Siberman ( 11th Sep 2004, 08:04, Rank: Mentat )  reply

So, from what people are saying, there are three ways of dealing with trisk: the first is a highly convoluted cheese stands alone strategy, the second is a dedicated damage prevention, and the third is to kill the player before he becomes a threat.


read biography for - Beale

 Beale ( 11th Sep 2004, 14:34, Rank: Cylon Centurion )  reply

I think you can get away with less depending on how many counters are on (or can be added to) the triskelion. For example, if the owner is letting the damage resolve one at a time, you can wait until some damage is dealt, and play something like Reverse Polarity or Pay no Heed. You'll most likely need two, though, since the most obvious response for the Triskelion owner is to stack up the damage in response.


read biography for - dormouse

 dormouse ( 12th Sep 2004, 10:28, Rank: Jedi )  reply

depending on how many excess counters the trisk has, you may need more than 2 (of either damage prevention/lifegain/killing trisk player with blasts).

remember that once you play Reverse Polarity or whatever, the trisk player can still repeatedly play and resolve 1 damages in response, they don't have to pile them all up in an unresolved stack. So each spell you play can only delay 1 damage while its on the stack, if they're playing right.


read biography for - karne

 karne ( 13th Sep 2004, 09:51, Rank: GSV )  reply

Many techniques seem to rely on the trisk player making a stacking error. I was wondering if there were good ways to provoke such errors (that's why I suggested guilty conscience, but you'ld have to get that down earlier in the game).


read biography for - Beale

 Beale ( 13th Sep 2004, 12:34, Rank: Cylon Centurion )  reply

dormouse: Not with Pay No Heed, if I'm reading it correctly. I'm surprised this isn't a more common card...


read biography for - dormouse

 dormouse ( 13th Sep 2004, 16:22, Rank: Jedi )  reply

beale: thing is, it needs to resolve to have an effect. e.g.:

  • 'A' plays Pay No Heed. It is on the stack.
  • Both players get a chance to play something in response to "Pay no heed"
  • 'B' triggers a damage with the trisk in response.
  • Any response to trisk damage? no.
  • 1 trisk damage resolves.
  • Both players get a chance to play something in response to "Pay no heed" (still on the stack) again.
  • 'B' triggers a damage with the trisk in response.
  • Any response to trisk damage? no.
  • 1 trisk damage resolves.
  • Both players get a chance to play something in response to "Pay no heed" (still on the stack) again.
  • etc.. etc.. etc..

apologies if that was already clear and you meant something else...


read biography for - karne

 karne ( 13th Sep 2004, 16:28, Rank: GSV )  reply

Since you have to declare the target of 'Heed as you play it, the skely will kill you in response. Corse if you have a hand full of them...


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